tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post5080127220924320455..comments2023-10-31T10:28:50.158-04:00Comments on The Zeray Gazette: The Sky is Falling! The Sky is Falling!Johnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-69031992235111243532008-01-08T17:08:00.000-05:002008-01-08T17:08:00.000-05:00Michael: Perhaps if you actually read the study, y...Michael: <BR/><BR/>Perhaps if you actually read the study, you might find the scriptures you have been looking for. Admitting to ignorance isn't shameful, but admitting that you have no interest in even examining the very document in question while at the same time characterizing elders as denigrating local pastors, is, to my mind, shameful.<BR/><BR/>You do local pastors no service with your previous comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-70287316886679156332008-01-02T22:18:00.000-05:002008-01-02T22:18:00.000-05:00Most of the objections I've heard from elders has ...Most of the objections I've heard from elders has more to do, in my humble opinion, with a country-club mentality that demands to know why the bus boys want to eat in the main dining hall. I see what the others on this post have said, but this is my take on some of the objections I've read. <BR/><BR/>Admittedly I've not read the Study and don't really care to. Being a local pastor, I don't really have a lot to say that would amount to much. Suffice it to say, I agree with John in that in all the objections that have been raised by elders in other writings, not one has bothered to quote Scripture as to why it is theologically questionable for local pastors to administer the Sacraments.<BR/><BR/>Still, is Chris not more accurate in that this is just one more distraction that misses any real point to be made?<BR/><BR/>My 2 cents.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06046469207005773680noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-54853135185068554702008-01-01T14:37:00.000-05:002008-01-01T14:37:00.000-05:00John, my impressions were similar to yours. I blo...John, my impressions were similar to yours. I blogged about them last week.Brian Vinsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17221972114141282402noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-45834163127112362422008-01-01T14:27:00.000-05:002008-01-01T14:27:00.000-05:00Thanks for that correction, Jonathan. That does i...Thanks for that correction, Jonathan. That does indeed appear in <A HREF="http://www.gbhem.org/studyofministry/pdfs/CSMfinaldocument.pdf" REL="nofollow">the study</A>.<BR/><BR/>Maybe this is the voice of inexperience, but I'm not sure what problems the Study intends to correct if its recommendations are implemented.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-76427067570964117322007-12-31T17:05:00.000-05:002007-12-31T17:05:00.000-05:00I'm with Jay and the others on this one. And this...I'm with Jay and the others on this one. And this is coming from a Local Pastor who first raised questions in the Methoblogosphere about the first draft of the Study on Ministry. While I don't agree with all of the points being made in this edition of <I>Circuit Rider</I>, I don't see the chicken little aspect that you see here.<BR/><BR/>I would encourage everyone with an interest (and that should include most of the people who read L&H) to take the time to read the study and other documents that have been generated by it <A HREF="http://www.gbhem.org/studyofministry/index.html" REL="nofollow">here </A> at the GBHEM website. The commission is proposing further discussion and dialog. If that's what they want, then folks need to know what they are discussing and dialoging about.<BR/><BR/>WayneTN Ramblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13337932588414375173noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-31444730021244199092007-12-31T15:51:00.000-05:002007-12-31T15:51:00.000-05:00John, my understanding is that if the proposals of...John, my understanding is that if the proposals of the study committee are implemented that most of the people who are now local pastors would be ordained elders. So, your concern about people not being able to receive Communion is exaggerated.Jonathan Marlowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06204365581553282434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-7667992625431652372007-12-31T12:54:00.000-05:002007-12-31T12:54:00.000-05:00I no longer receive the Circuit Rider, don't know ...I no longer receive the Circuit Rider, don't know why, but don't miss it enough to call and ask...<BR/><BR/>Anywho; whether Jay or John's reading is fairer, I can't say. I can say, though, that there is at least one elder who is not so terribly concerned with power, control, and sacramental exclusivity.Steve Heyduckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16429370781525010342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-14473623247274330022007-12-31T12:40:00.000-05:002007-12-31T12:40:00.000-05:00Jay, I have re-read the articles in question and t...Jay, I have re-read the articles in question and think that I have read them correctly. If I have misquoted the authors or quoted them out of context, please explain where. Specifically.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-72595868938509900092007-12-31T10:47:00.000-05:002007-12-31T10:47:00.000-05:00I'm with Jay here.The idea is that ordination and ...I'm with Jay here.<BR/><BR/>The idea is that ordination and admission into full connection of the annual conference be separate things. Therefore you have local pastors ordained but not in full connection and elders that are ordained and in full connection.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-7826579542788736022007-12-31T10:44:00.000-05:002007-12-31T10:44:00.000-05:00John, My reading of the Circuit Rider agrees with ...John, <BR/><BR/>My reading of the Circuit Rider agrees with Jay Vorhees.<BR/><BR/>Tim SiskAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-44892081693019811332007-12-31T10:12:00.000-05:002007-12-31T10:12:00.000-05:00JOhn, great post.I would say that during my time i...JOhn, great post.<BR/>I would say that during my time in seminary and in my student pastorate, I questioned why I should become an elder. I could see the growing number of local pastors and I saw the number of direct hire staff that were doing as much (and making as much or more) than full elders. While I think this is an important question, liek Jeff, this is NOT a really important questoin facing our demoniation. This is just one in a number of distractions that continue to misguide our churches and leaders from focusing on real problems that are causing teh decline -- not that any of us really know what those issues are because we haven' studied or even honsestly addressed that question.Pastor Chris Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16074688893090018935noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-43590407319027073952007-12-31T08:07:00.000-05:002007-12-31T08:07:00.000-05:00I recently read the same Circuit Rider issue and I...I recently read the same Circuit Rider issue and I take issue with your characterization of the articles in that issue. What I heard from several of the authors (including Kohler, who I disagree with on many points) was not a longing for the good old days of elder power, but rather a recognition by the study commission of the current lay of the land. Increasingly the UMC is utilizing local pastors in local congregations, and what Kohler, Frank, and the rest of the commission is arguing for is that these pastors be ordained rather than living in some sort of organizational limbo. Ordination would provide sacramental authority, something that already exists within specific congregations, but is more consistent with a sacramental theology that holds to the notion that ordained persons need to be involved in serving and authorizing the sacraments (a point that we can argue, but still remains part of our tradition and theology). <BR/><BR/>One of the problems with our ordering is the division in our system between ordination and conference membership. The study commission is not suggesting that ordination be equated with full conference membership, thereby leaving power in some ways in the hands of the itinerate group of elders. <BR/><BR/>To be fair to Bob Kohler (who I disagree with on many topics) I don't think his statement about joining the order of elders what one of longing, but rather one of surprise and regret of a tradition that was so historically separatist in nature. <BR/><BR/>Knowing Tom Frank as I do, he in no way is suggesting that the decline in UM membership statistics is in any way connected to our ordering of ministry. What he is acknowledging is something that we all need to recognize -- that we live with a legacy of an evangelism plan that leaves us with many, many very small congregations, most of whom cannot afford a full-time minister, and frankly don't want one. How we provide pastors for these "family chapels" is an important question today, and I think Frank is arguing for making sure that our system of ministerial ordering is consistent with our current deployment of pastors. <BR/><BR/>I encourage you to go back and re-read the articles again, for I really don't think the articles were as negative or fearful as you make them out to be.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-12926925106754114042007-12-31T01:57:00.000-05:002007-12-31T01:57:00.000-05:00Oh and I meant to add that limiting the sacraments...Oh and I meant to add that limiting the sacraments back to only the elders, would probably lead to an even bigger hemorrhage of membership, as people would not be able to take part the one sacrament that is meant to bring the church together.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372574684055295217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-68159419689431974952007-12-31T01:51:00.000-05:002007-12-31T01:51:00.000-05:00It seems to me that focus has been lost on why peo...It seems to me that focus has been lost on why people are leaving the church, or not going there to begin with. It has nothing to do with who can bless the sacraments, but the fact that the church seems stagnant, which I feel has to do with large segments of the congregation that think the one hour on Sunday is all that is required to have a relationship with Christ.Jeffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16372574684055295217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-16017585164468215482007-12-30T21:51:00.000-05:002007-12-30T21:51:00.000-05:00Oh, the good old days. Back in 1967 when clergywo...Oh, the good old days. Back in 1967 when clergywomen were still struggling to get a toe in the door. Five years before we finally eliminated the Central Jurisdiction. Yep, we should definitely be doing things the way they were done back then.Mary Bethhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06620639746694576459noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-14553835593821216902007-12-30T21:02:00.000-05:002007-12-30T21:02:00.000-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Scotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06784668813923290837noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-4406128181723206042007-12-30T20:40:00.000-05:002007-12-30T20:40:00.000-05:00Perhaps if the ordination process was not such a c...Perhaps if the ordination process was not such a convoluted mess and if a seminary education didn't cost an arm and a leg...Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05635426740700809467noreply@blogger.com