tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post6923013382718619167..comments2023-10-31T10:28:50.158-04:00Comments on The Zeray Gazette: On the Abnormality of the ChurchJohnhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-20892111551675422562009-08-21T05:37:34.931-04:002009-08-21T05:37:34.931-04:00Hi there,
I am 27 years old, have a BA and MA in...Hi there, <br /><br />I am 27 years old, have a BA and MA in Religion from theologically conservative schools, an am afraid that I have had experiences, different in nature, but just as damaging as the ones you describe.<br /><br />My experiences happened in high school and college at a church where my mother was Children's pastor, and that I had attended my entire life. It may be worth noting that the pastor was methodist, even though the church was Evangelical Free Church of America. I spent 9 years not going to church, angry and hostile, even as I went through my formal theological training. <br /><br />Brother, I know too many people like us. Wounded people who want to do God's will, but can't stand 'God's people.' I am currently trying to find a paying job in the field of theology, finishing my second masters, and examining doctoral programs with the intent of teaching. I actually emailed a church tonight about a college pastor ('intern') position that pays a whopping $200 a month. To create and execute a college and young adult program. In Southern California. It's nuts, but it's all that's out there... and I need the experience on my resume.<br /><br />I have attempted NOT to do ministry... and I have found each job, law school, and even starting a business lacking in the fulfillment that I seek.<br /><br />The point, however, is that some of us have been where you are. If you have not read Dark Night of the Soul, please do. It is your road map for your Journey. You will learn far more about yourself, your faith, and your God apart from the church, preconceived notions, etc. Nothing changes your perspective about the church like hearing what non-Christians say about the church, then hearing the local baptist pastor talking about beating people over the head with the Bible, loudly, at Starbucks. Believe me, I spoke up... :) <br /><br />Stay true to the disciplines (trust me... I didn't... healing takes longer). Keep your faith in God, avoid the church (This is, in my opinion, necessary for healing), and find like minded Christians to fellowship with. <br /><br />Keep in mind, that God will likely call you back to ministry at some point. This is where I am in my journey, and it is especially frustrating. The church does not understand the need for the separation... <br /><br />"what have you done ministry-wise for the last 9 years." <br /><br />"Well, I learned not to hate people like you" is generally considered an innappropriate answer for a job interview. As is, "Well, I learned how not to be an asshole!" or "I learned that I'm a shit head, so that I don't judge other people for being shit heads!"<br /><br />My heart breaks for you. Hold on, and don't let the darkness consume you.Jeremynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-52091046537747284862009-06-22T22:31:00.762-04:002009-06-22T22:31:00.762-04:00"stop forcing everyone out of the church unle..."stop forcing everyone out of the church unless they are radical people"<br /><br />I don't know where you are, Anonymous, but where I am the Methodists look much more conservative than radical.Divers and Sundryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01759655568104782267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-69208432501424485122009-06-22T19:47:37.638-04:002009-06-22T19:47:37.638-04:00It's time that the UMC actually obeyed the law...It's time that the UMC actually obeyed the law of both God and man. Stop the lying by many ministers to drive a person out of the church, require the UMC to obey some law, and stop forcing everyone out of the church unless they are radical people. How about a single sunday where nobody puts anything into the collection plate except for a letter addressed to the bishop with the personal reason why funds are being witheld. Then watch the problem be addressed. Cash seems to be the only "talk" being listened to; use it's verbal powers.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-90755112725553177762009-05-21T21:01:57.542-04:002009-05-21T21:01:57.542-04:00It's simply time that the UMC threw out its broken...It's simply time that the UMC threw out its broken and worn out system for candidacy and let the called in. First, Samuel got called by God not the District Committee. He did not have to jump through hoops, charm a minister, or prove himself. God called, Samuel listened. The UMC should listen too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-64986559333950922262009-01-22T16:40:00.000-05:002009-01-22T16:40:00.000-05:00Uh oh, I better start watching my back now that we...Uh oh, I better start watching my back now that we're collaborating.Ken Hagler, Your Alaskan Realtorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12356950549649622483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-77224672475072538202009-01-22T16:07:00.000-05:002009-01-22T16:07:00.000-05:00Oh, and as for the UMC re-evaluating itself based ...Oh, and as for the UMC re-evaluating itself based upon what I've written, they have all the access they would want. Someone from the Florida Conference building has been pinging my IP tracker every 2 to 3 hours for weeks now. I'm being watched <I>very</I> carefully.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-5209549800981941602009-01-22T16:04:00.000-05:002009-01-22T16:04:00.000-05:00Well, sure, Ken. I haven't assembled everything i...Well, sure, Ken. I haven't assembled everything in a file, but I have e-mails and so forth. Unfortunately I had to delete e-mails from 2007 that could have proven that some of the things the clique said were lies because my Asbury e-mail box was clogged.<BR/><BR/>But I could certainly wouldn't object to putting together such a file. In fact, if the UMC wanted to hire me on as a consultant on the candidacy process, I'm game. Have mouse, will travel.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-73278671085171905772009-01-22T14:46:00.000-05:002009-01-22T14:46:00.000-05:00John,Was thinking about the paper work but also al...John,<BR/><BR/>Was thinking about the paper work but also all the blogs and comments, letters, notes, basically anything in writing or from conversations you remember, that record the events that occurred. As has been evident by other comments, what happened to you isn't isolated but I think you may have recorded more than probably anyone else. <BR/><BR/>There has been so much talk about the need to evaluate our ordination process. Your voice could be heard in a much broader context not only in addressing an injustice but also towards reform. I have some of my own thoughts I'll share with you at another time.<BR/><BR/>I've just begun reading "Against the Grain," by Roy Teel, Jr. about a critique of the megachurch. As I read, i can't help but reflect on your experiences. Not sure my final thoughts but I don't think I'm wasting my time with it.<BR/><BR/>And I thank you for your gracious words. You have no idea how much they mean.Ken Hagler, Your Alaskan Realtorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12356950549649622483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-59607091109615031122009-01-21T21:54:00.000-05:002009-01-21T21:54:00.000-05:00Files? You mean like commissioning paperwork? Su...Files? You mean like commissioning paperwork? Sure, I still have those lying around on my hard drive. But DCOM loved my theology work and only thought that I needed to drastically update my leadership paperwork because the church imploded after I turned it in, but before I faced them.<BR/><BR/>No charges were ever filed against me. In fact, no formal complaints were ever submitted against me. The DCOM orally reported to me why they were throwing me out of the ministry, but I doubt that they have the balls to do so in writing. So I'm not sure what files you are talking about.<BR/><BR/>By the way guys and gals -- Ken, here -- he knows pastoral care. After I got thrown out of the ministry, he wrote me an e-mail that was an utterly flawless example of pastoral care. It should be in seminary textbooks.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-77152693245372009342009-01-21T21:00:00.000-05:002009-01-21T21:00:00.000-05:00John,I'm curious, do you have a file of your writi...John,<BR/><BR/>I'm curious, do you have a file of your writings to go along with the other documents here?<BR/><BR/>I don't think I've shared that I was deferred twice for probation - first time was no question, my stuff was bad. Second time - still doesn't jive in my mind but I think it was best. <BR/><BR/>The processes are so inconsistent across the denomination and you've experienced the worst of it - totally subjective. <BR/><BR/>You've given me a lot of food for thought (a bloody meal for sure - not a zombie joke but I'm now wondering if such analogy isn't worth exploring 8). I can't change what happened to you, but I can certainly work to protect others from having it happen to you. I think all of us who are ordained Elders need to be aware and concerned.<BR/><BR/>Please know that you're never far from thoughts and prayers.Ken Hagler, Your Alaskan Realtorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12356950549649622483noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-2419274466954689592009-01-21T19:27:00.000-05:002009-01-21T19:27:00.000-05:00John,I went through so much like you. I left the ...John,<BR/>I went through so much like you. I left the UMC and now am called to hospital chaplaincy. <BR/>I loved your coment about the church and Jesus. I love Jesus but the church needs work. Keep writing.I'm here! Now what?https://www.blogger.com/profile/15808154616777150947noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-74312277378751218612009-01-21T18:38:00.000-05:002009-01-21T18:38:00.000-05:00Well, the whore has to get her act together if she...Well, the whore has to get her act together if she wants to be with me.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-38123005863873595012009-01-21T16:52:00.000-05:002009-01-21T16:52:00.000-05:00I don't think anyone has said that whatever the ch...I don't think anyone has said that whatever the church does is the will of God. I certainly know that the church is not perfect and in fact it can be quite destructive. My point was simply that the church is not TOTALLY corrupt, otherwise it would not have introduced John to Jesus. And as St. Augustine said, the church may be a whore, but she is still my mother.Jonathan Marlowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06204365581553282434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-85120204161941110812009-01-21T11:50:00.000-05:002009-01-21T11:50:00.000-05:00I have to say that I have never in all my life hea...I have to say that I have never in all my life heard the idea that the church always and everywhere infallibly does the will of God. And I grew up in denomination that Methodists would consider extremely authoritarian.<BR/><BR/>Clergy and lay leaders can commit sins of commission in the name of their own pride, ambition or what have you. Clergy and lay leaders can commit sins of omission by failing to name wrong as wrong and by failing to stand up to bullies. <BR/><BR/>Of course lay people can bully others. Of course clergy can bully others. Of course congregations can set off down the wrong track. Why on earth did Paul wrote those letters to the Corinthians, for a start?<BR/><BR/>The idea that 'whatever the church decides is the will of God' is not 'a high theology of church' it's a blind theology of church.PamBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11324370506889227234noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-36338078216470715102009-01-21T08:57:00.000-05:002009-01-21T08:57:00.000-05:00"Good point, Jonathan. In that case I must withdra..."Good point, Jonathan. In that case I must withdraw my stated trust in Jesus,"<BR/><BR/>I don't think Jonathan has a good point at all. You can trust in and maintain a relationship with a person long after you've ceased to trust in and have a relationship with the person who introduced you. Just because you've now rejected the church doesn't mean you have to reject everything you learned about through the church.Divers and Sundryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01759655568104782267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-22690495161621314972009-01-21T07:19:00.001-05:002009-01-21T07:19:00.001-05:00Thank you, Andy.Thank you, Andy.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-13077816851715256122009-01-21T07:19:00.000-05:002009-01-21T07:19:00.000-05:00Good point, Jonathan. In that case, I must withdr...Good point, Jonathan. In that case, I must withdraw my stated trust in Jesus, as I can have no true idea of who/what he is.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-53201968779215657072009-01-20T22:53:00.000-05:002009-01-20T22:53:00.000-05:00Hey John - I've been reading your posts and the co...Hey John - I've been reading your posts and the comments over these weeks, and I haven't added anything until now because I wasn't sure what to say. I still don't, but I wanted to let you know that you have another friend, for what it's worth.Andy B.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05944614269873479581noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-50697189510812627792009-01-20T22:18:00.000-05:002009-01-20T22:18:00.000-05:00Since you intuitively trust Jesus, perhaps there i...Since you intuitively trust Jesus, perhaps there is a sense in which you have to admit that the church is on to something? In other words, if the church introduced you to Jesus, can it really be as bad as you are suggesting? How could an institution as corrupt as you are saying introduce you to someone like Jesus?Jonathan Marlowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06204365581553282434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-12037351594282968862009-01-20T22:17:00.000-05:002009-01-20T22:17:00.000-05:00"Anyway, none of her prophecies ever came true"So ..."Anyway, none of her prophecies ever came true"<BR/><BR/>So by "prophecy" she means foretelling the future? <BR/><BR/>"I won't deny the sincerity of most of these believers."<BR/><BR/>Being sincere doesn't make them right. ;)Divers and Sundryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01759655568104782267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-74080750006731988462009-01-20T21:52:00.000-05:002009-01-20T21:52:00.000-05:00D & S, in the more Pentacostal-ish wing of the...D & S, in the more Pentacostal-ish wing of the UMC, such as the Aldersgate Movement, it's fairly common. I won't deny the sincerity of most of these believers.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, none of her prophecies ever came true. Like some prophets, it was just a tool that she used to gain power.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-76459237078957102622009-01-20T20:32:00.000-05:002009-01-20T20:32:00.000-05:00"she thought that she had the spiritual gift of pr..."she thought that she had the spiritual gift of prophecy."<BR/><BR/>I'd love to know what she thinks the "gift of prophecy" is and what evidence there is to support her claim. I've heard it said that preaching can be a prophetic ministry, and I've heard some folks described as "gifted" preachers, but I've never heard a United Methodist claim to have the "gift of prophecy". <BR/><BR/>Of course, I don't get out much...Divers and Sundryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01759655568104782267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-76585121335571648622009-01-20T19:45:00.000-05:002009-01-20T19:45:00.000-05:00Exactly, Jonathan! And that is a big, big problem...Exactly, Jonathan! And that is a big, big problem.<BR/><BR/>I must reassess everything that the Church taught me.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04854543617806427302noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-71084275795613521732009-01-20T19:43:00.000-05:002009-01-20T19:43:00.000-05:00John said, "I trust Jesus, but I don't trust the c...John said, "I trust Jesus, but I don't trust the church at all." <BR/><BR/>What did you learn about Jesus that you didn't learn from the church?Jonathan Marlowehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06204365581553282434noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10760709.post-50881279010531103012009-01-20T18:35:00.000-05:002009-01-20T18:35:00.000-05:00Yeah, well basically, she thought that she had the...<I>Yeah, well basically, she thought that she had the spiritual gift of prophecy. In retrospect, this could have been a warning sign.</I><BR/><BR/>I don't want to ask more details than you want to reveal but I would have taken this as the possibility of a warning-sign. I say 'possibility' because although I too believe in the spiritual gift of prophecy I'd want to know what the person meant by it. <BR/><BR/>I'm making some assumptions here (not fishing for information) but not allowing anyone to contradict one's 'prophecies' is one of the primary signs of Spiritual Abuse. Patience, kindness and humility are supposed to be the Spiritual Fruits that we all receive from the Holy Spirit and declaring that 'I cannot be wrong because I have the gift of prophecy' is a serious sign that something is wrong.<BR/><BR/>I want to say 'Wow, she claimed to be a prophetess and the church sent YOU to a counsellor?' That's ****ed.<BR/><BR/>By the way, I think our discernment process here in the UK also sometimes errs on the side of giving the impression that the church's boxes coincide with the will of God. But I'm not under the impression that many people believe that God's call cannot be heard outside the church or answered outside the church or that working for the church is the same as working for God. That whole mind set is just wrong.PamBGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11324370506889227234noreply@blogger.com