Saturday, November 29, 2008

Wherein I Destroy John Wilks With My Superior Reasoning Capacity

In a previous post about a Star Trek vs. Star Wars video, John Wilks commented:

But really, a Star Destroyer would utterly overwhelm a Galaxy class starship rather quickly. No match.

Puh-leeze. With mere laser and ion cannons, a Star Destroyer couldn't so much as carve a moustache on the face of a Galaxy-class starship, armed with 10 phaser banks, photon torpedoes and regenerative shielding.

John, how about you do some basic research before you embarrass yourself on the Internet in the future.

Facts matter, John.

7 comments:

trekkerjay said...

I agree with John the Methodist... the star destroyer is no match for a galaxy class starship!!

John Wilks said...

OK John, let's talk logic.

First, let's consider the "lasers" on an Imperial Star Destroyer. We know that the "lasers" in the Star Wars universe are not lasers as we know them. They are not a continuous beam of light and energy. They are bolts of energy very similar to Klingon disrupters. We know that such weapons are roughly comparable in leathality as Federation phaser technology. Ion canons, as witnessed in SW:ESB, are essentially beefed-up versions of this same “laser” technology. The sheer number of such weapons on a Star Destroyer would certainly cause interruptions in shield defenses on Enterprise.

Let's assume that somehow the Enterprise's shields stand up to the first volley. We must now consider computer technology. Certainly, the shiny “Apple store” appearance of the Galaxy class vessel compared with the crude displays of the Imperial network seem to imply an advantage to the Federation. Not so. The Empire has access to millennia-old cybernetic technology which implies a vast degree of technological superiority.

Consider this: the Enterprise has only one Data- and they barely understand what makes him tick. A Star Destroyer has a host of droids including astromech units of the R2 and R3 series who are every bit as capable as Data at deciphering foreign computer code. Working in tandem, such astromechs could easily figure out the shield harmonics of the Enterprise within minutes of engagement, leaving the Enterprise without it's primary defense.

Which leads to my third point: one-man fighter and bomber units. Federation phasers and photon torpedos are notoriously slow to aim and are designed for fighting large craft. Smaller, more nimble craft present a serious threat especially when deployed en mass. After all, tractor beams might help against a few small fighters, but not against multiple squadrons.

Forth, each Star Destroyer carries at least a whole division of crack Storm Troopers. Federation security teams are well trained in finding and repelling small boarding parties aimed at sabotage. They would be no match for a boarding party numbering in the hundreds. After all, the Enterprise has a complement of around 1000 including scientists, engineers, janitors, and the civilian spouses and children of the crew. That leaves, what, maybe 300 people with any significant combat training and perhaps 100-200 who have faced serious action. Putting them up against Storm Troopers who have a notorious disregard for the value of human life, and you are talking about a slaughter of terrifying proportions.

True, the Enterprise has transporters. They could beam there best team onto the Star Destroyer. But remember that even with a Jedi knight and the son of the Chosen One on their side, Rebellion forces only escaped the first Death Star because Vadar let them go. There are no Jedi on Star Trek. That boarding party would be walking into a trap.

Let's sum up: the Star Destroyer has comparable weapon technology, a much larger and more heavily armed vessel, more advanced computing ability, a full complement of small fighters and bombers, hundreds and perhaps thousands of troops for boarding. To top it off, the Empire operates with enough bloodlust to make a Klingon fill his unitard with half-digested Gagh.

And the Enterprise has comfy chairs, slick touch-screens, and some tachyon beams they can reverse the polarity on.

John- you obviously don't know the power of the darkside.

Kansas Bob said...

Maybe we need "Q" to show up and put things (and Vader) in their place:)

John said...

The sheer number of such weapons on a Star Destroyer would certainly cause interruptions in shield defenses on Enterprise.

And yet, as the video demonstrates, they did not.

Consider this: the Enterprise has only one Data- and they barely understand what makes him tick. A Star Destroyer has a host of droids including astromech units of the R2 and R3 series who are every bit as capable as Data at deciphering foreign computer code. Working in tandem, such astromechs could easily figure out the shield harmonics of the Enterprise within minutes of engagement, leaving the Enterprise without it's primary defense.

Really? Was this tactic successful even against the obsolete Rebel Alliance vessels?

Which leads to my third point: one-man fighter and bomber units. Federation phasers and photon torpedos are notoriously slow to aim and are designed for fighting large craft. Smaller, more nimble craft present a serious threat especially when deployed en mass. After all, tractor beams might help against a few small fighters, but not against multiple squadrons.

History declares otherwise with regards to the performance of Galaxy-class starships during the Dominion War, when these vessels routinely slaughtered masses of Jem'Hardar fighter-class craft, particularly during Operation Return and the Battle of Cardassia.

Forth, each Star Destroyer carries at least a whole division of crack Storm Troopers. Federation security teams are well trained in finding and repelling small boarding parties aimed at sabotage. They would be no match for a boarding party numbering in the hundreds. After all, the Enterprise has a complement of around 1000 including scientists, engineers, janitors, and the civilian spouses and children of the crew. That leaves, what, maybe 300 people with any significant combat training and perhaps 100-200 who have faced serious action. Putting them up against Storm Troopers who have a notorious disregard for the value of human life, and you are talking about a slaughter of terrifying proportions.

A legion of Storm Troopers were destroyed by a tribe of spear-throwing Ewoks. I don't think that Starfleet security personnel would have anything to worry about -- even if the Storm Troopers were able to successfully board a Starfleet vessel.

True, the Enterprise has transporters. They could beam there best team onto the Star Destroyer. But remember that even with a Jedi knight and the son of the Chosen One on their side, Rebellion forces only escaped the first Death Star because Vadar let them go. There are no Jedi on Star Trek. That boarding party would be walking into a trap.

A boarding would be completely uneccessary. Just stand off and dump photon torpedoes into the Imperial vessels.

John Wilks said...

And yet, as the video demonstrates, they did not.

The video made the faulty assumption that a Star Wars “laser” is the same as a laser in the Trek universe- which is our universe. As stated in my first post, the term “laser” in Star Wars refers to something different. Just as the word “tortilla” means omelet in Spain and flatbread in Mexico, so “laser” means a continuos beam of light-energy in our universe and something akin to a disrupter in the Star Wars universe. Anyone who has watched Star Wars and Star Trek can clearly see that the weapons in both universes are fairly comparable.

Really? Was this tactic successful even against the obsolete Rebel Alliance vessels?

In SW:RTJ, Ackbar clearly states that the Rebel fleet couldn't withstand a long engagement with Star Destroyers. In fact, without the presence of the midiclorian-endowed Skywalker twins, the Republic might not have won a single battle. In fact, the Rebellion was limited to guerilla tactics precisely because in a straight-up engagement, the Empire had them outgunned and outmanned.

History declares otherwise with regards to the performance of Galaxy-class starships during the Dominion War, when these vessels routinely slaughtered masses of Jem'Hardar fighter-class craft, particularly during Operation Return and the Battle of Cardassia.

Perhaps you have a point here. Then again, there was no Imperial Star Destroyer-sized mother-ship also engaging in the same moment. Oh, and I'll take highly trained clones over drugged-up slaves any day. I wouldn't trust a bunch of 'roided-out space junkies with a '48 Buick, let alone a fine piece of 24th century fighter technology.

A legion of Storm Troopers were destroyed by a tribe of spear-throwing Ewoks. I don't think that Starfleet security personnel would have anything to worry about -- even if the Storm Troopers were able to successfully board a Starfleet vessel.

And who was there? Oh, yeah, Leia Organa- one of those pesky Skywalker twins. Seems that the Force had as much to do with that as the furry halflings. In fact, the events of the battle of Endor served to fulfill an ancient prophesy about how Anikin/Vader would bring balance to the force. It was the will of the force that the Ewoks won. Last time I recalled, there were no force-users on the Enterprise.

A boarding would be completely unnecessary. Just stand off and dump photon torpedoes into the Imperial vessels.

Both vessels use shielding which drains with each successive volley. Thus the all-important question is this: which vessel can fire the most shield-draining shots the fastest?

Enterprise has 10 phaser banks and 2 torpedo bays. Assuming that they have separated into two sections and that both sections have engaged the battle, that is 12 weapon banks firing.

A Class II ISD carries 8 8-barrel turrets, 60 turbolaser cannons, and 20 ion cannons. That is 88 weapons in total plus a compliment of 72 Tie fighters and 5 gunboats. That is a 13.75 to 1 advantage to the Imperials.

Now consider that the Imperials can fire 165 weapons at two craft while the crew of Enterprise have to use those 12 weapons to defend against 78 vessels. The math is overwhelming.

John said...

Unfortunately, John makes the same arguments against Starfleet ship design that someone else did many years ago.

Coincidence? I wonder.

I'm not drawing any conclusions. Just pointing out commonalities.

Joshua Cole said...

Give me the entire ST:TNG DVD collection and a set of the SW:E1-6, a bottle of lighter fluid, and a book of matches and I can take out the entire Starfleet & Imperial forces at once!

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge Star Wars fan (so I have to side with John Wilks) but, c'mon... seriously? Is this battle really taking place?