I hope that you don't mind, but I need to vent a little.
I had two seminary choices: Asbury and Garrett-Evangelical. Garrett offered me a 75% scholarship, but it was far away, making job-switching for my wife tricky and completing the candidacy process very challenging. And its theology was scarily unitarian/pantheist/New Age. Asbury was a lot more expensive, but close by and conveniently located in the very state where I am seeking ordination. Its theology is solidly orthodox.
But (there's always a "but") Asbury is badly run. The left hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing, let alone the right hand. In my first week, all of the room assignments for classes were wrong. Each and every one. They could have put up a sign with the correct room assignments, but I guess that would involve doing work or something. The computers wouldn't let me log in. Professors assigned items that dozens of students were locked out of. Books were unavailable.
There's no accountability for professors. Papers are returned when and if they want to. They stroll in late for class and spend 45 minutes trying to get their computers to work. The amount of downtime (time that I paid for) spent on professors' computers is enormous. And let's not even get started on the Distance Learning Technology!
One thing that I have at Asbury that I don't know that I would have at Garrett is that I'm certain that my professors are actual Christians. That's nice, and so far, appears to be the only advantage to my attendance here.
I haven't studied at any other seminary, but I did go to college and grad school, and neither institution suffered such repeated failures.
I will, of course, finish my M.Div here. My geographic situation is locked in. Still, if Garrett-Evangelical was across the street from Asbury, I'd go there.
In spite of Asbury's conservative theology, I can't recommend it to any United Methodist student outside of Florida.
Thank you for letting me vent. Rant concluded.
UPDATE: Since not all of this debate is available to the general Methoblogging public, I would like to note something in the interest of full disclosure. There is widespread disagreement with my assessment of Asbury. So if you're a candidate for ministry and you're considering Asbury, bear in mind that my views are not met with universal agreement.
ANOTHER UPDATE: Further thoughts here.
Friday, February 10, 2006
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36 comments:
Still, if Garrett-Evangelical was across the street from Asbury, I'd go there.
Why? Is it better run, or just because it would have cost you less?
Actually, I'm trying to decide where to go to school. The DS encourages Garrett and some of my former profs encourage Asbury. It's nice to get an opinion of an experience at Asbury to help make my decision. Thanks.
Well, it would cost me less. I'm guessing that it's better run. Guessing, mind you.
I graduated from Asbury in 2000 and loved my time there. However I went to "main campus" in Wilmore so I can't speak for the Florida campus. I wouldn't change a thing. Awesome profs, great environment...
That's true, but I was in a tight spot. Most of the others required two or more academic references. Well, library school did not offer those kind of relationships -- so that instructors would remember me. And of the three undergrad professors that I worked closely with, one was dead, one had gone off elsewhere and no one knew what become of him. The other, a Latin American history prof, was glad to be my reference. So I had one. And that's it.
My wife balked at the idea of going to California or the Northeast, which left Asbury and Garrett.
I visited Garrett, as well. I choose Candler b/c a) I have a good scholarship b) I didn't have to move.
Garrett had, well, ATTITUDE. Hard to describe.
Shoot, John, I don't know if you would call ME a Christian.
I've never had reason to doubt you.
John,
One thing you need to make clear is your talking about issues at the Florida campus not the main campus at Wilmore. While florida is a satalite campus I have a hard time believing what your saying being that I am in my second year and have never heard of any issues that you are speaking of. It sounds like you have had a few bad experiences and are blowing them way out of perportion. The people who have come here have had nothing but good things to say about the Orlando campus.
To Nate and anyone else who is considering this, please make sure you get an equal opinion from someone who thinks very highly of the institution as well.
Actually, Allen, they have been quite consistent.
Man, I'm sorry to hear it John.
"My wife balked at the idea of going to California or the Northeast, which left Asbury and Garrett."
California? Ewww. And in the Northeast we do have those pesky seasons. Floridians have trouble getting a handle on that for some reason.
Without a doubt. Jacksonville, Florida is the furthest north that she's ever lived. Boston (where there is a good UM seminary) would be a little too much culture shock for her. From what I've seen of Ally McBeal, I'm not sure that I'd want to live there, either.
Good thought, but my Conference strongly discourages candidates from attending non-UMC schools.
Asbury is, by the way, not offically UMC. It's 'methodist' with a lower-case m, and not under the control of the UMC hierarchy.
John,
It's interesting that you would ask for an excuse for such a harsh, grace-less, berating of an institution that is still trying to work out its kinks in Florida. If you're going to bitch about it, don't apologize; if you're going to bitch about it and not attempt to do anything about it (which it seems from your blog that you have not), then I'm not sure you should even be sharing your frustrations with anyone outside of your sphere of influence.
I'm not a huge fan of this seminary, but I find your blog post appaling. You see, I did go to another seminary where I had a full scholarship plus funds, yet my leaving didn't really boil down to what I wanted as much as where God was directing my life. Sounds like your wife had more imput than the direction of the Holy Spirit (that is, according to your blog).
Have you actually spoken with your profs? Can we get an update on your bitch session about the seminary? Oh, and I agree with Allen...be careful what you say about institutions...someone might mistake your blog for the voice of the Lord.
Dan, I guess your understanding of grace is that we don't hold people accountable for their actions. What curious theology.
John,
Unless your professors read your blog, how is that holding anyone accountable? Oh, and as far as holding someone accountable, I think I just did. He apparently despises correction. I think there's something in the Proverbs about that. Maybe you should go talk with your profs and then let us know what you found out. Or, you could email president Greenway...Jeff_Greenway@asburyseminary.edu...or Pete Cates....or maybe your SLT president who is, actually, your representative. There are other options than the one you have taken, which ultimately appears to make you feel better rather than holding your profs and the institution accountable. So, who are you holding accountable?
Dan-
Welcome to the blogosphere. Here, people have 'opinions' and 'views'. They say things that (this may surprise you) you might disagree with. Try not to get your feelings hurt.
Oh, and by the way -- I have expressed my concerns directly to profs.
Sweet...you failed to mention that before...did you get a response?
and
Do you have access to FirstClass? Jason Huff recently posted a great thought on TableTalk that you might get something out of. You should check it out; seems like it might give some insight to what you're going through. Let me know if you check it out; if you can't I can just send it to you.
Oh, and about the comment about feelings getting hurt, that's pretty funny. I'm pretty sure that I understood that when I commented on your "bitching" session.
Oh, and you're forgiven for the sarcastic jab, no need to ask...
What's interesting in this discussion is that no one is saying "Professors should show up to class on time."
Is that a radical view?
John, you still haven't answered Dan's question concerning confronting professors: "Did you get a response?"
I also think profs should be on time. Thankfully, I have not seen much tardiness on their part here at the Wilmore campus. But perhaps that is a different story in Orlando. Have you brought this concern to the leadership there?
-Jesse
Professors should show up to class on time...although that's pretty hypocritical for me to say since I rarely do...(insert laughter).
Just now getting in on the conversation...
I do believe that professors should be held accountable for a) being on time b) getting papers back (I'm still waiting on one and I've been out of seminary for 3 years) and c) what they teach.
I went to MTS (Memphis Theological Seminary). It's Methodist approved but ecumenical by nature. It's actually Cumberland Presbyterian owned. I know some will think that this was a mistake. But the fact is that I went simply for the reason you did John. It was near by and I could student pastor a church in my own conference. It was also cheaper.
I am also glad I went. The profs actually were there on time and even though some had some strange ideas, I have not been shocked when I see or hear about them now away from school. I found MTS to be well balanced between liberal thinking and conservative thinking professors. And I think I came out stronger for it.
Sorry, got off the subject for a minute :)
Yes, I do think the profs ought to be held accountable, but not by the students. This should come from above, from somebody whose grade it won't affect.
Thank you, Greg. That's better written than I have expressed.
I thought about Duke, but the multiple-professor rule kept me from applying. I've heard that it's level of scholarship is unbeatable in the UMC.
Hey John - wow, lot of emotional feedback to this post. I guess, knowing your writing style I thought your post was pretty amusing. If only the problems you describe were limited to Asbury! :) I looovved Drew, but certainly can think of some of the paper-lost-in-space instances happening there. Even had one professor who had papers held over longer than a semester or two. But overall, I do really think finding a theological home that is a comfortable/yet challenging combination is the best bet. The rest is details. Frustrating details, but details nonetheless.
Beth, in the midst of a flood of angry e-mails and message board comments, your comment is gulp of fresh air. Thank you. Probably finding a theological home is the probably the best course of action, and working out the details. The frustation of the various problems that I described has been getting to me.
Did you ever say what answer you got back?
Tardyness is not good. Also by students who hand in assignments late. Ouch
"my Conference strongly discourages candidates from attending non-UMC schools."
That's their loss I fear.
John, this "Welcome to the blogosphere. Here, people have 'opinions' and 'views'. They say things that (this may surprise you) you might disagree with. Try not to get your feelings hurt. " seems to be a theme with you
but I find it curious then that you write this Beth, in the midst of a flood of angry e-mails and message board comments, your comment is gulp of fresh air. to Beth. Doesn't seem to be very consitant!
You know my views on blogging (grin!)
We should respect each other. I'm sorry your experiences at seminary have not been good. I hope that they take your complaint seriously and that good Christian teachers are employed. Good at in teaching too :)
I trust too that you are in the right place. The comment about not listening the the HS but only your wife was NOT helpful IMHO.
(Tell me if your conf hadn't had the UMC rule, and you could have chosen freely - where would you have gone and why?)
be blessed
I see your point, Lorna. This discussion is going on at the same time on an in-house Asbury message board and my e-mail in-box. The general theme of the objections is "How dare you disagree with me!" The sheer childishness of my detractors is astounding.
It's a lesson: blogging has desensitized me to disagreement, and perhaps I expect that too much in other people. So many respondents are utterly shocked that anyone would take a contrary opinion to themselves.
Where would I have gone if not for the UMC-only rule? I've never thought about it. I was aware of that situation in my conference from the beginning, so I never considered anything else.
Except for Beeson, which is in my hometown.
Permit a rephase "sheer childishness of many of my detractors" Not all.
John,
Too bad the experience has not been better. However, I have to say that my experience was not necessarily all that different, and I went to Princeton seminary, which was flush with cash. Not well run and organized, technology problems, professors taking months sometimes to return papers (although I don't remember profs being late for lectures). Of course, by my final year, I was skipping at least 1/2 of my classes and only turning in the papers according to the schedule handed out on the first day of each class, so I may well be wrong!
My first semester at Princeton was amongst my worst life experiences ever. I LITERALLY thought about transferring to Asbury (Wilmore campus) EVERY SINGLE DAY for my whole first year. In the end, it didn't really matter - I got my degree and got out. Three years in New Jersey was about three years too many . . . (I came away with some awesome friends, and wouldn't trade those relationships for anything!)
The comment by Dan about listening to your wife more than the Holy Spirit was way out of line.
That bad? Ah, Larry, I should have been there for you in that difficult time. I didn't know that you were getting it rough then.
I remember that you've spoken of Princeton's theology in a less than positive light. Was that the issue? (if you want to talk about it)
John,
I've heard others make similar comments about the Orlando campus.
And as an ExL (Asbury's term for distcance learning) student, I'm not pleased either.
Wilmore was a well-run campus when I was there- and all I hear from there makes me think that nothing has changed.
Orlando has issues which I hope will be addressed.
On-line is my big gripe. The reading loads and assignemnt loads get worse every semester. The idea of an on-line course is to maximize learning while meeting the time crunch of students who have full time ministry obligations and families.
But lately, it seems more like "let's see how much the cyber-punks can take before they break."
Frankly, with over fifty hours in the tank, I wish I could just call it "good" and do course of study instead. But since I'm only 41 and there is no way my DCOM will let me tred water for nine years, I guess I'll keep chugging.
The larger issue, though, is the notion of seminary to begin with. Much of what we learn (like, say, in the basic Christian leadership class) has diddly-squat to do with how real churches work.
Personally, I think seminary should be 30-45 credit hours plus two full years of highy structered mentoring.
But don't look for the GBOM to buy into that lione of thinking any time soon. We're convinced that pastors need 80-plus hours of grad-school to lead a church and we're convinced that our model works. Never mide the actually state of our churches and our rate of decline.
In the mean time, gut it out, take what you can from the classes, and get out.
I'm teaching Intro to Philosophy to a bunch of community college students this semester. I aim to be there 30 minutes before class starts. My students are paying for what they're getting and I owe them my best. When you're the leader being on time means being early - whether you're a teacher, pastor, etc. Obviously everyone is late sometimes, but a habit of lateness inspires lateness & laziness in students.
Are the bulk of your profs at ATS Orlando full timers or adjuncts? Is there any difference in lateness & technological success between the two groups?
I haven't noticed any wide degree of variance based upon faculty status.
John, I've heard about ExL being very heavy.
I wonder how big MDiv Programs will be in a generation. All of the clergy over 65 that I know say that the amount of work and the complexity of tasks in ministry is much larger than when they were younger, so there might be some justification for more coursework.
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