Thursday, April 13, 2006

Justifying the Restriction of Immigration

Jockey Street, responsible for the end of Tom Delay's career, has placed me in his crosshairs:

Essentially, I read them as John saying that he enjoys his privileged position and doesn't want to see the culture that he enjoys so much changed (or destroyed-- but cultures are rarely destroyed, generally only modified) and so he wants unappreciate, non-assimilating immigrants kept the hell out.

Yes, that's pretty much it. Jockey Street [in my reading] then goes on to say that it is a legitimate desire to retain majority status -- up to a point. The severity of the steps taken to ensure that cultural homogeneity should not morally exceed the actual harm done by its loss. I agree with that statement in principle.

Wants -- and I would say that the desire to maintain a certain lifestyle, a sense of privilege, a particular flavor of culture is in every way a "want"--are legitimate. We have every right to act on our wants, to seek the fulfillment of our own desires...up to a point. And that point, most of us would agree, comes when the fulfillment of our want conflicts with someone else's need. My desire to get loaded up and drive real fast so I can watch the colors go by in neat ribbons and swirls, for instance, is less important than the need of everyone else on the road to make it home alive, so I can't do that sort of thing. Even though sometimes I'd like to. That sort of thing. When weighing wants vs. needs or life vs. lifestyle, needs and life get priority, want and lifestyle have to be content with the back seat.

Driving out illegal immigrants would be an ugly business. It would, regardless of method, harm the immigrants in question. The harm that we should be willing to inflict would induce a moral cost which should not exceed the consequences of failing to drive them out. If the illegal immigrants were flesh-eating zombies trying to kill us all, that moral cost would be justified. However, our problem is primarily with Mexicans, a fairly civilized people who are coming here not to devour us but to work their way out of poverty:

If the immigration issues that you were discussing here were about life and safety, you'd have a lot of room to argue. To ask for secure borders in effort to keep bad people from hurting you is pretty rational. But that's not where you seemed to be going with these posts. That seems to be a different discussion altogether. You didn't express fear that a Mexican might come to your house and kill you, only that he might come to your country and force you to read signs written in Spanish or take away your privileged position in the culture.

Making these kinds of moral cost-benefit decisions is tricky because their variables are subjective and cannot be reduced to numerical form. What is the cost of not acting? Jockey Street is skeptical:

So I guess if your interest in keeping poor brown people from other countries out of your neighborhood is really all about enjoying the privileges you have and not wanting to see the things that you like changing, it's not entirely alright. To want to see some sort of regulation, to have an expectation that in some ways people assimilate (ways that will allow society to keep functioning), is understandable. But again, that doesn't seem to be what you were getting at.

Before I go (I've been rambling)--how different is what you're saying here from the rhetoric of racists not too long ago? "I have privileges, I enjoy them, I want to keep them." "I like my culture the way it is, I don't want it to change." Those words could have easily come out of the mouths of people opposed to civil rights (or even to the abolition of slavery) not so terribly long ago. Certainly, when the civil rights era (and the abolition of slavery, and women's suffrage) brought about significant changes in the culture and took a certain degree of privilege away from people who seemed to be thoroughly enjoying it. Would those people have been justified in opposing integration, abolition, suffrage? And I'd be willing to guess that you and I--both white, male, educated, privileged--live in very different worlds, have different takes on culture. Can your arguments for opposing immigration be applied to keeping people like me out of your neighborhood? If me and twelve of my friends were to move into your neighborhood and change the local culture, could you kick us out?"

This isn't about race. It's about culture and language. Multicultural countries rarely hold together or function with national unity and multilingual countries do even worse. If America has too many divergent cultures, it will not function effectively as a country. And given that many of the Mexican immigrants (legitimately) see the land that they are inhabiting as stolen from their country and that they are engaging in a reconquest, America will not survive as a polity in the future. The problem is not that there are a lot of brown people coming into our country. The problem is that there is a massive tidal wave of people (regardless of color) moving here from a nation immediately bordering ours who consider the land to which they are moving to be stolen from their own homeland and that their intention is to displace our national culture there with our own. They're colonizing us and even say it, openly and brazenly.

I get Jockey Street's point: is it moral to sacrifice the lives of innocent Mexicans for the sake of preserving our culture? I'm uncomfortable saying 'yes', but I'm going to -- within limits. I base that yes out of an extended view of the fundamental human right to property. A person has a right to preserve his house and belongings* from thievery. If a family -- even a poor one -- occupies the house of another without consent, it is stealing. A person has the right to declare his house his castle and determine the rules for guests who seek admission into it. He should help the poor, but it is reasonable for him to say "Yes, homeless man, I will help you find food and shelter and possibly a job, but you cannot live in my house." The body politic is a collective house that we live in which has property (territory) and rules for admission (immigration and visa laws). We have a moral impetus to help other, less fortunate nations, but also a propertarian right to set and enforce boundaries.

So by all means, let us permit Mexicans to immigrate to the US. As Jockey Street says, it is fair to set rules and regulations for such immigration. Sassimilationuld require assimiliation into American culture and language.

Why are the Mexicans not assimilating? Because there are so many of them that they do not need to assimilate. Our problem is not that we have Mexicans; our problem is that we have so many. The present population will never assimilate such vast numbers. We are like a snake trying to swallow too large an animal. The Mexican population is simply too huge for us to digest, as we did with European immigrants a century ago. I am not calling on us to get rid of brown people. What I am suggesting is that we only permit in as many immigrants as we can absorb.

The consequence is that many impoverished Mexicans will never be able to come to America, not to speak of the hundreds of millions of other people around the world who would love to come here and make money. Does that make me a cold-hearted SOB? Yeah, kinda. We could be more charitable and open up our hearts and resources to others, like homeless shelters do. But even homeless shelters have rules. They have only X number of beds and Y number of meals, and if demand exceeds supply, too bad. Well, America only has a certain amount of room before it ceases to be America. Take a number and wait in line.


*Yes, yes, Jesus said give all of your stuff to whoever wants it. But then again, if there is no right to property, why are we commanded "Thou shall not steal"?

25 comments:

Jim said...

"A fundamental human right to property"?

Sorry, but we are only stewards. It's God's property and He expects us to be good stewards not greedy and covetous of something we "deserve".

The right to life is much more "fundamental" yet you openly say you are ok with the deaths of a "few" Mexicans in order to protect your standing.

That is not a very meek statement.

Anonymous said...

Why is the USA so prosperous that Mexicans (and others) want to come here? Because our economic and political system has fostered an environment that made that prosperity possible.

If the culture that created that economic/political environment gets wrecked by allowing unchecked immigration -- which is I think what John has said he wants to guard against -- then the USA stops being prosperous and immigrants will have no reason to want to come here.

Is that what wabi-sabi and jockey street are after? Everybody equally miserable? Where does the progress come from, then?

When's the last time a life-saving drug or medical technology came out of Mexico? Pakistan? Nigeria? When's the last time a tyrant tried to take over half the world and Mexico stepped in to stop him?

Those who are being critical of John and suggesting he is lacking in Christian charity need to take a step back and realize that at some point somebody needs to say "no" or "not yet" or we lose everything in the free-for-all. Somebody has to be the grown-up.

Jody Leavell said...

John, don't you agree that it is much better that you stop beating your wife?

John said...

At the risk of sounding unpatriotic, I feel no great urge to protect the American culture.

I'm more concerned about preaching God's Kingdom.

Trouble is, so many Christians intentionally confuse American culture with God's Kingdom.

So from where I sit, seeing the culture take a few hits on the chin is good for the Church. Maybe if American culture changes enough, churches will stop trying to be the right arm of human culture and instead remember our real mission- to be Christ's ambassadors to a lost nation.

(And it IS a lost nation- it ALWAYS has been. For all the great things about America- and there are many- this is NOT the shinning new Zion sitting on the hill. And American freedom, as much as I enjoy it, is a pale copy of the freedom Christ alone can give.)

Adam Caldwell said...

5 am...my goodness...do you sleep John?

Adam Caldwell said...

Amen brother Wilks

John said...

Really? The world would be better off without America? The Kingdom of God would be advanced by its loss?

It's all very trendy and cool to talk about how American culture is awful and that we are citizens of a higher nation and shouldn't be concerned about what happens on earth. It's fun to read Hauerwas and Willimon and write pompous papers about how Christianity and Americanism contradict each other. It's very hip to rail against American freedom and wealth while taking full advantage of them, even the spread of those very arguments. One of the most delightful ironies of Resident Aliens is that it attacks freedom and consumerism in the form of a mass-produced and marketed paperback, freely distributed within the very culture that it attacks. Or that Hauerwas makes a living as a professional lecturer -- an occupation that could not exist except in a wealthy, capitalistic society. But after we listen to such people and cheer them, we go off by ourselves and pray feverently that our policy ideas are never implemented. Then, the whole system would come crashing down.

But, alas, rhetoric has consequences.

John said...

Well, for some reason, I was wide awake at 4 AM, so I got up and finished this post, mostly written the night before.

I like your new picture. Very buff.

John said...

So the system of spreading God's word cannot survive without the American system, eh?

Yeah, they said that about Rome.

And if you assertion is true, that American Christian would die without America, then let it. If we're so dependent on a human government for survival, then we've become what Paul warned of- those who have a form of godliness but lack actually power from God.

God is my provider. If the system of clergy compensation went away tomorrow, I am confident that God will help me make ends meet. I've been flat-broke and unemployed before and God has always provided.

And even if I starve, I do so to the glory of God. That is the attitude Christ commands of us in the Sermon on the Mount- not to worry about seeking financial security but to trust in He who cares for flowers and birds.

Look- I never said that America is evil or that is should be done away with (although someday it WILL disappear. No nation lives forever, you know.)

All I said was that America ain't perfect.

Why should Christians run around like Chicken Little. Cultures change. Cultures die. That is the way of the world. We cannot hold the clock still at 1962 and all whistle the Andy Griffith theme-song forever.

And even if we could, the Church should never ever become wrapped up with such matters. We are not here to serve humanity, but to serve God's plan to save humanity. That is no small distinction. Even at our best (and I'll grant that America may be the best human governing concept ever) human beings fall short. Why prop up imperfection when we're called to God's governance?

So far as Willamon and company, don't think they're saying something novel. Check out Augustin's City of God for a run-down on how "Athens" (that is the best human expressions of freedom and peace) and "Jerusalem "(that is God's offer of His freedom and peace) have very little to do with one-another.

John said...

I didn't say that Christianity would collapse without America. What I questioned was if the Kingdom of God would be advanced if America disappeared. What advantage would be served by its loss?

John said...

Oh, another thing, John and Adam:

Are ya'll saying that the culture of a Mexicanized America will be more condusive to the Kingdom of God? Because by attacking one culture over another, you're establishing a preference.

John said...

1. The Kingdom of God will advance because of God. The ups and downs of America are mere circumstance which God will use as He pleases and work around as He needs.

Yes- when America lives up to its ideals, it may facilitate aspects of Kingdom building. I don't deny that. In fact, I'm pretty happy to make that statement.

But make no mistake- God works wonders and shows His power best when human strength fails. If America became corrupt or ceased to exist, God would still yet supply His Church with all it needs. More than that, He would teach us to lean on His strength and not our own ways.

2. I make no preference for Mexican culture over American. Both are the reflection of human beings trying to make sense of life. Both cultures have upsides and downsides. The merger of the two could serve to build on the strengths of both or the weaknesses of both.

But I'm not making a value judgment between one culture or another.

I'm simply stating the law of history- every culture changes, every culture evolves, every culture picks up traits from other cultures, and every culture eventually dies. Those statements as a true for the best and worst example of human civilizations. Anyone who wishes to "freeze" the culture or roll back the clock is wasting their time. Change is inevitable.

Adam Caldwell said...

I too would say that I am not advocating for Mexican culture. Clearly they have there own shortcomings. I imagine that if I lived in Mexico, or Sweden, or Sudan, or wherever I would be saying that there is an alternative way to live.

But hey, I got drawn into this once...I just figured I woul let John go to bat.

Adam Caldwell said...

Thanks...I've been working out lately. Got to keep the temple nice and tidy.

Andy B. said...

Myth - there is an American culture. Truth - America is now and always has been vibrantly diverse.

Myth - America is uniformly proseperous. Truth - the gap between rich and poor in our nation is huge.

Myth - Prosperity is inherently good. Truth - In addition to a lot of good, prosperity leads also to greed, envy, ulcers, and a mile-a-minute pace of life that is not conducive good health.

John, your picture of America is really pretty, but I just don't see it in reality. (Are you sure this wasn't one of your "Art Blogging" entries?) ;)

John said...

Wait -- America has no culture? Andy, please explain how America, of all the nations on earth, is so exceptional that it has no culture.

John said...

In the second comment in this thread, Jim McKay wrote in reference to property rights:

Sorry, but we are only stewards. It's God's property and He expects us to be good stewards not greedy and covetous of something we "deserve".

The right to life is much more "fundamental" yet you openly say you are ok with the deaths of a "few" Mexicans in order to protect your standing.

That is not a very meek statement.


I'm not going to write off the notion of a right to property, but I agree that Jesus had some pretty tough commands. The harest of which is to give of whoever asks and turn the other cheek.

But we don't live this way. None of us do. Ever. If someone breaks into the church, we call the police. If a panhandler asks us for money, we give some, but not all. I don't have a solution to this dilemma, but I would like to point out that no one follows the challenge of Jesus.

John said...

Myth - America is uniformly proseperous. Truth - the gap between rich and poor in our nation is huge.

Yes, the are rich people and poor people. But compared to the rest of the world, being poor in America is pretty good.

Myth - Prosperity is inherently good. Truth - In addition to a lot of good, prosperity leads also to greed, envy, ulcers, and a mile-a-minute pace of life that is not conducive good health.

The Mexicans pouring across the border disagree with you. And I'll take a ulcer over starvation anyday. The risks of wealth are better than the risks of poverty.

John said...

Oh, I forgot this:

John, your picture of America is really pretty, but I just don't see it in reality. (Are you sure this wasn't one of your "Art Blogging" entries?) ;)

It's there. We are richer and freer than any other nation on earth, which is why everyone is trying to come here. And why very, very few people move away.

The reality is America is beautiful. In the past century, it has done more good for the world than any other nation on earth. Its loss would be a horrific tragedy.

John said...

Adam wrote:

I too would say that I am not advocating for Mexican culture. Clearly they have there own shortcomings. I imagine that if I lived in Mexico, or Sweden, or Sudan, or wherever I would be saying that there is an alternative way to live.

If you're opposed to restricting illegal immigration than you are supporting the removal of the American culture for the Mexican one. Would that be an improvement? Choose carefully.

Anonymous said...

A nice response. I read it only a few minutes ago and haven't had time to organize my thoughts, so I'll just give the random reaction, if you don't mind.

To Holypirate, who commented "Is that what wabi-sabi and jockeystreet are after? Everybody equally miserable? Where does the progress come from then?" First, hey, Holypirate is an awesome name. As is wabi-sabi, and (not trying to score points) Locusts and Honey. Second, not all. And I understand the sentiment that I think you're expressing. I don't remember the author and I don't remember the quote (some Buddhist book I read a long, long time ago), but I've often thought about a sentiment I can paraphrase as "political policy means nothing unless it impacts the single household," meaning that all these ideals and such that we argue about aren't really good unless in some tangible way they make the lives of individuals somehow BETTER. Too often, I think, people get very wrapped up in their ideologies and their sense of right and wrong, but if you followed their lead and really implemented those ideals, no one would be any happier. I don't want to be one of those people. I am not at all implying that we should make this country a "worse" place to be so that there would be some sort of level playing field (ever read "Harrison Bergeron?" if not, you should).

This post was a little different than the earlier two posts. Whether it was a slight shifting of position or simply a clarification, I don't know. I find less (though not "nothing") to object to here. What got me in the earlier pieces was in part your motivation ("I really enjoy being in the dominant, majority culture" has an awkward ring to it, I think) and in part, perhaps, the timing. With legislation on the table that would make it a crime in some places to feed a hungry human being without checking his immigration status, a heartfelt "get them furriners outta here" can give a man the willies. I don't mean to imply that you support the most draconian laws out there (though maybe you do; and, in your gaming days, did you ever fight a Draconian?), only that the timing was creepy.

"Your interest in keeping poor brown people from other countries out of your neighborhood" may have been a cheap use, on my part, of the race card. I don't think, however, that you remove race from the discussion entirely. While you say race is not a factor (and I believe you), in a sense, I think it is. Not race as race, exactly, but race as a signifier. The truth is that all those people coming across the border and refusing to assimilate look a lot like each other and not a lot like you, and I think that can't help but have some sort of effect on perceptions, on the tendency to group people. If Mexican men all had white skin and long, thin beards, those long, thin beards would be the group signifier and it would, in a sense, be about those guys with long, thin beards. The analogy with past racism is, I think, perfectly valid. You could strip the purely racial motives from the argument against abolition, and your "I just want to maintain the culture I love" arguments would still flow smoothly from the mouths of white slave owners. Race aside, those who were kept as slaves certainly had a very different culture than those who kept slaves. Abolition certainly forced a change on a culture that many good people loved. The situations aren't exactly the same, but your argument supports (or fails to support) both positions equally well.

Some commenters here have commented that there is no American culture, and I disagree with that. I do, however, think that it's all pretty abstract, and I wonder exactly what you fear will be lost of the culture you so love. You've talked a lot about enjoying your culture and not wanting to see it change. What are the tangibles here? I think it's easier to support harsh policies when speaking in abstracts and lofty ideals (more people will kill and die for "freedom" than will kill and die to save five cents a gallon at the pump, for instance). When you're defending your culture, it's okay to kick poor people out of your country. When you're doing it so you don't have to read signs in Spanish (for instance) it sounds silly. So what is it that you fear you will lose?

Are Mexicans really trying to take back portions of the country they say was stolen from them? I've never heard that. You didn't hear that from Ann Coulter, did you?

Want constitutes assimilation, or lack of assimilation? I lived many years in Rome, NY, a heavily Italian city. I worked with older women who had been in the country 40 years, spoke broken English, couldn't write a word of English, could read very little English. They hung out with other straight-off-the-boat Italian womens. Italian teens dated other Italian teens. Italian houses flew the Italian flag. Italian women cooked Italian food, Italian families went to Catholic churches with other Italian families. Pasty white boys like me with absolutely no identifiable ethnicity were often heard muttering Italian phrases, pronouncing "manicotti" as "manigaut." Old Italians bitched about this country and talked about how beautiful it was in Italy.

Can I send those people back? I mean, they're legal now, sure, but not entirely assimilated?

How assimilated do you have to be to be good enough for citizenship?

Your analogy of the house... you know, about how we're not required to let poor people move in with us, how we don't have an obligation to give it all? Only goes so far. Depends, I guess, on the house. I mean, my wife and I live in a small house, and it would get cramped and crazy if a family of six moved in withe the intention of staying long term. If approached by that needy family, we'd probably try to help in other ways, but we wouldn't ask them to move in. Which isn't immoral. If, however, you live by yourself in a mansion, with lots and lots and lots of extra rooms, taking up acres of land, with fifteen bathrooms, fully stocked refrigerators, and eleven cars in the vast garage, and a few families whose homes have been destroyed by the latest hurricane (NOT caused by global warming or any other hippie nonsense)come to your door begging for a place to stay, there just might be something immoral about saying "sorry, we're full." Even if it's yours. Even if you worked for it.

Finally, I do very strongly agree that there needs to be some sort of immigration policy. I would even agree that if people are actively trying to make this country a part of Mexico, they should be sent somewhere else. But I think we need a more compassionate response than "sorry, we're full" (I like your homeless shelter analogy, and, as a human service person, identify with it to a point). Maybe "send them back" is an appropriate response, but not by itself. Maybe our "send them back" would be an appropriate response when coupled with an effort (on both the personal and political levels) to level some playing fields in a positive way (not everyone equally miserable). Maybe "send them back" should be accompanied by questions as to why people want to come here, how some of what we do (please don't assume that I'm saying America is always the most fiendish of all the bad guys) might be responsible for that, how we might be able to make better choices as to how we deal with people living outside our borders.

Adam Caldwell said...

DOAH!!! I thought I would get out of this one, but no...I had to go and open my big mouth with a simple "Amen".

Honestly, I don't know that I am entirely opposed to restrictions of immigration...just the specific harshness of felony charges. I don't necessarily think that it is fare to say I am preferring the Mexican culture over American culture by voting against those immigration laws.

Perhaps I am just saying, "let's not make 'knee-jerk' reactions."

But I'm not handiling this one, Andy, John, and Jockeystreet can take the reigns.

Oh yeah...YouTube is where I found the Christian Edition of Brokeback Mountain.

Oh yeah (again), John, you and I will be Seminary brothers beginning in the Fall. Alas, we will be miles apart though for I will be in Wilmore and you in Orlando. Perhaps I will see you on the video conferencing screen someday.

Adam Caldwell said...

On another note...with the culture issue...I am more interested to see what foreigners think our culture is like. How do they see us? Wouldn't that be the true test? Just thinking.

Holy Pirate said...

Oh yeah (again), John, you and I will be Seminary brothers beginning in the Fall. Alas, we will be miles apart though for I will be in Wilmore and you in Orlando. Perhaps I will see you on the video conferencing screen someday.

The family grows by one. I will be ExL at ATS starting this fall. Wilmore in a couple of years, God willing.

John said...

Cool! If ya'll are ever in Orlando for a J-term, let me know.